E3: The Mysterious Pill That Is Transformation

with Tameryn Mallett, Global Process Owner at Lendlease

E3: The Mysterious Pill That Is Transformation

with Tameryn Mallett, Global Process Owner at Lendlease

E3: The Mysterious Pill That Is Transformation

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Would you accept a pill from your doctor if they never told you what it was?
So often users feel the same way about transformation – resisting it out of confusion and frustration.
On this episode, we chat with Tameryn Mallett who is the Global Process Owner at Lendlease, one of Australia’s largest construction companies, and explore how create an environment that is condusive to change within the business.
Tameryn started her career in software transformation, and the lessons that she’s learnt in transforming people, process and technology within software implementation projects around the globe has enabled her to draw out lasting principles that have been cross-applied to finance and banking, and now in construction.

We talk about:

  • Tameryn’s career journey to date
  • Crossing cross cultural barriers in transformation
  • Waterfall vs agile – and how knowledge workers can begin to think in an agile manner
  • Mindset challenges with transformation
  • Intrapreneurship and the importance of Minimum Viable Products (MVP)
  • The power of data in winning champions and benchmarking success
If you would like to connect with the show host or guest you can find them at:
  • Tameryn’s LinkedIn profile: (https://www.linkedin.com/in/tameryn-mallett-2b717120//)
  • Minwoo’s LinkedIn profile: (https://www.linkedin.com/in/minwooyim/)
This show would only be possible with listeners like you!
  • If you enjoyed the show, we would love if you could leave us rating or review to help get the word out!
  • If you have a digital transformation story (or know someone who does) feel free to email us at [email protected] – we’d love to hear from you.


[00:00:00] Hey listeners. Welcome back to outside the box, the podcast, focusing on digital service transformation. On today’s episode, we have Tameron mallet, who is the global process owner at Lenley’s one of the largest construction companies in Australia. Now, unlike many of our other guests on this podcast who are primarily knowledge workers that also happen to be driving transformation in their role, tamarin is the knowledge expert when it comes to driving transformation. 

[00:00:28] She brings a wealth of experience in having started in the software transformation world and then moving into finance transformation at Westpac, which is one of the four largest banks in Australia. And now finally, I’ve these where she combines her experience in software implementation, process improvement and optimization, as well as offshoring and third party relationships. 

[00:00:52] On today’s episode, we covered many of the practical considerations when it comes to implementing digital service transformation, [00:01:00] things like what to consider when it comes to getting people on board, how to gather data and use it, not only to define success, but also to bring people along the journey, as well as things like leveraging broad company strategy to drive functional team success. 

[00:01:17] There’s a lot of goodies in here. So if you’d like to continue the conversation with tamarin, you can reach out and connect with her on LinkedIn by searching tamarin mallet. But that said, Tamryn welcome to the show to kick us off. We’d love to know your career journey today and how you ended up in the wonderful world. 

[00:01:37] Yeah. Hi men. Uh, thanks for having me. I guess I, I started my career in sales actually. Um, And quickly knew that that wasn’t for me, um, being a sales person, but it does kind of get you understanding about what, what kind of the customer is. And that’s always been a passion of mine and, uh, yeah, I [00:02:00] slowly moved into, um, becoming an analyst, which, um, was, uh, via Oracle. 

[00:02:06] So I sort of implementing a large program, um, Pieces of work, uh, got noticed by a couple of, uh, good leaders and, uh, yeah, got promoted to, I guess, a business analyst, so traveled around the world and in different locations and, uh, implemented large scale kind of software implementations. Which, um, got me sort of interested in process improvement myself, which sort of, as you, as you learn, as you go being on large scale pieces of work, you sort of realize that, Oh, this could be done better. 

[00:02:39] And we did it in sequence. So we did it started off with one country and we literally went around the world from London all the way back, circled back to Canada. So we had kind of gone through the different, and you learn with different cultures as well, and the way people kind of work. Together. And yeah, I sort of got me into the passion of that. 

[00:02:57] So I learned how to be [00:03:00] a six Sigma first green belt and then a black belt and, uh, got into lean. And sort of leaning, leading my own sort of pieces of work, uh, process improvement pieces. So I sort of was dabbling in the two of software implementation and process, but as us decided to sort of take more of the strategic group of software, um, sorry, uh, the process improvement side of things, which. 

[00:03:24] Sort of got me a little bit into strategic, um, analysis as well. Uh, which is obviously what you have to do to sort of be the beginning of any transformation program. It’s sort of got a certain it within your strategy and aligned to your strategy, no matter what business unit you’re in. So I sort of, uh, moved from, from process improvement into, um, I guess almost like customer engagement. 

[00:03:47] Um, Kind of work and I even did a couple of big deals with, uh, uh BPO’s. So, um, did a large deal all by myself, which was a little bit, [00:04:00] uh, challenging, but, uh, I guess, uh, it definitely got me progression in my career. I’ve learning how to kind of construct deals and, and. Um, add that BPO kind of business process of shoring into, into a transformation, into a strategic, um, and capabilities. 

[00:04:16] So that’s how I got the role as a GPO because I had all three, I had saw the software, I had the process improvement, um, element to it, and I had, um, experience working with, uh, offshore providers and, um, third party suppliers. So, um, I rarely love engaging with, with external parties. Uh, I, I like learning from them and kind of seeing what’s out there and sort of baselining as a, as another passion of mine, sort of setting yourself a baseline of where you are and benchmark yourself against where your competitors are and that sort of learn, um, learning where you need to improve on. 

[00:04:56] Can you speak a little bit to that. So what are the, some of the things that you learned from when you [00:05:00] were going around the globe, as you say, and implementing those projects? Bear Armando was quite young at the time. I was only starting my career. And, uh, and I had a leader, like I mentioned before that sort of pushed me into the BA role. 

[00:05:12] And at first I sort of said, I can’t do this. And she was like, you can definitely do this and you will do it. And yeah. Yeah, my first, my first, uh, you know, I landed in Australia and Perth and I’ve literally been there for a week. And I was told to pack my bags and off I was going to Houston. Oh my gosh. Um, so I was a bit like, Oh my goodness. 

[00:05:33] I moved over to Australia was beautiful summer. I’d just moved over from, from London. And it was, yeah. I shipped off to Houston. I was like, Oh my gosh, I’m surrounded by Cowboys. And I didn’t understand really what was going on. And you soon learn about. The culture and people are so nice there. And everybody was really, I think, I think that was my biggest learning curve is sort of just sitting back and listening to people and understanding what their concerns are. 

[00:05:59] And, [00:06:00] um, you know, you, you got to remember as well, sometimes these large technology projects that. People being that’s like kind of being done to them. Right. Everyone ready, chooses, especially the users. And, and my role as a business analyst was to talk to all the users to gather their requirements and that kind of thing. 

[00:06:17] So, um, Learning about cultures is a strange one. I think it’s sort of having that respect and, and just understanding, you know, where they’re coming from kind of thing, and trying to be a little bit more flexible in the way, your style of kind of gathering requirements and the way you kind of host workshops. 

[00:06:36] It’s not all, you know, sometimes the London is, or New York or Sydney kind of gets the whole very straight faced business, no fluff kind of, um, Environment, but I think you need to have that kind of, um, empathy and, um, relate to that, whatever that culture is. And especially in my role now, as a global process owner, I’ve. 

[00:06:58] Got four different [00:07:00] regions that I’m looking after and they’re all very different styles. Um, and they, they, some are resistant to change and some of them are very, um, you know, willing to help. And some of them are always Nope, straight away. Right. You kind of have to bring them along the journey. Yeah. In your experience, having now done a variety of different transformation projects in different areas, what are some of the key challenges that you’ve seen? 

[00:07:27] Be kind of quintessential as part of a transformation process, uh, and something that you can maybe speak to for teams are listening. Uh, some advice that you would give them in the face of this challenge. First of all, it’s like going to a doctor and the doctor’s prescribing you a pill and convincing you that this pill, even though you’ve said you’ve had no symptoms or anything, you just going for a regular visit, you know, the doctors basically telling you that I take this pill. 

[00:07:54] It’s amazing. Um, and it it’s, it’s like, you’re, you’re first of [00:08:00] all, you’re going to be like, well, what is this? What is it? What does it contain? What side effects is it going to give me that kind of thing? So I think it’s a bit like that where you’re, you’re sort of trying to force a pill down people’s throat and they don’t always know. 

[00:08:15] They don’t always know what’s coming to them and how it’s going to impact their lives. Um, so I think that’s the biggest challenges when change is sort of forced on people from a transformation, you know, a lot of the time the business cases developed without kind of the end users in mind or, or the users kind of brought on that journey as well. 

[00:08:37] So it’s important. Um, I’m very, data-driven. I th I think it’s important to sort of use or bring, bring those, um, Those people along the journey, or at least kind of understand again, that benchmarking and understand where you’re at from a usability perspective, um, where the people want. I mean, going back to the pill analogy, [00:09:00] uh, you know, you didn’t want it, you didn’t ask for it. 

[00:09:02] You didn’t say there was anything wrong with you. So I think, um, it’s the same with users, whether it’s a technology project or a process improvement project. I think it depends what, what type of project it is, uh, the process. Projects, you got you, you do have to, um, understand exactly what the three element and the empathetic element of it is. 

[00:09:24] Um, you know, and get really down to what problem you’re trying to solve from a business perspective. Um, whether, you know, sometimes I think that. The software projects are just slapped on, um, based on, uh, a business problem that somebody thinks that it is. But unless you get that data to understand, um, where you’re trying to go from a transformation perspective, I don’t think it’s, um, I don’t think it works. 

[00:09:52] I think, I think that’s when you get people resisting and then, you know, it does take a lot more time as well. Cause you’ve got obviously [00:10:00] engaged with these people and, um, try and extract their, their requirements and that kind of thing. So it’s definitely a problem. Well, the, probably the biggest challenge I’ve seen through most of my transformation projects and especially because the steerco is normally the decision makers and the users are, um, You know, just sitting there going sort of what it is, so that, that level of transparency and, um, maybe even doing, you know, I’ve done before, like, Actually telling the users what went on in the steerco. 

[00:10:30] Even now we’ve got this whole digital world where we can actually show them the recording of the steerco. Right. You know, it’s not, there’s nothing confidential in there, then it’s fine to kind of show them and bring them along with what the decisions are. And then they can better understand sort of how. 

[00:10:44] How they, how they can actually provide good use to the project and be part of something really special and good. And just for the benefit of our listeners here, when you say stego, you’re talking about council, the decision is a committee at the top. Yeah. Yeah. [00:11:00] So just the regular, um, kind of, uh, Daring committee that, that make all the decisions based on this normally, um, you know, the timeline and the, uh, the cost and stuff like that, of the project. 

[00:11:12] But sometimes there’s some, some key decisions that are made in those, uh, those meetings where it’s sort of like, Oh, well, we’ve got a problem. How can we solve it? I think if you maybe ask some, some of the, you know, the rest of the piece, people that are involved in the project, sometimes you can get a better answer. 

[00:11:28] Absolutely. And you, and you mentioned also that. One of the challenges is having that information from the steerco at the, at the kind of upper level flowed down to kind of the everyday user, the end user involved. Is that right? It actually, it happens quite a lot where, you know, there’s, even if it’s not a project of it’s just day to day kind of issues, you know, what, what happens at the decision-makers level, doesn’t always fall tobacco. 

[00:11:52] Down, you know, we’re constantly providing information upwards and I think it’s really good to see that information comes back down, [00:12:00] um, and circles around and has that little bit of an ecosystem, um, that evolves kind of, you know, bringing people along their journey because I think of people. Part of something special or no, I think they’re part of something strategic then everybody’s on board. 

[00:12:15] Right. Are there any other challenges that you’ve seen when it comes to transformation that you mentioned? Obviously now there’s no steering COBA any other challenges? Yeah. Probably the age old car, that age old, a waterfall versus agile. Yeah. Um, when I first started on projects, it was all waterfall. 

[00:12:34] Right? So waterfalls, just the methodology use. Um, if anyone’s, hasn’t heard of it before, it’s the methodology used to implement a project. Um, and what it was was you couldn’t move from one stage. Before, um, sort of signed off and you kind of got to get to a certain, certain criteria and stage Gates before you can get to the next stage of the project. 

[00:12:55] Whereas agile sort of works in all of those stages, all in one, you know, in [00:13:00] sprints, right? So you’re literally, um, you can’t move on from one stage to the other, which means that you’re actually, if you, if you think of, of a planning perspective, but you’re doing a large transformation, you’ve got, let’s say for example, a two year. 

[00:13:16] Program. Yeah, by the time you finish that program, as you know, the whole reason why agile is kind of sparked up because you’re, you’re that requirement and things change right from his new digital project products, you know, new, new people, you know, people move, they change, um, you sometimes even get new program directors or leaders while you’re in that two year period, which means direction changes. 

[00:13:39] So I think one of the biggest challenges is. Your goal at the beginning of the program needs to stay with you through the end. You need to keep remembering why you’re there. And, you know, I think that’s. That’s something that, uh, as a six Sigma person, it’s, it’s that control element of post [00:14:00] kind of a transformation that you never really get to. 

[00:14:03] Um, and I think you need to keep doing that throughout the program of work. Um, and that’s the biggest challenge I’ve seen is people. When you finished the program or when you get halfway, everyone’s like, why are we here? We’re gone off budget, you know, gone this way or that way. And we, we haven’t got the product. 

[00:14:20] Right. And yeah, that’s, it’s kind of becomes a bit messy, but, uh, thank you. You have to have it almost up visually everywhere where you can constantly go. Right. That’s why we’re here. That’s the direction we’re trying to get to. Yeah. Well, how can knowledge work is being encouraged to think in a more agile manner. 

[00:14:38] And, and view their work as more of an iterative process, as opposed to it being simply a to B. Yeah. I think you can bring, um, some design thinking in it. I don’t want to throw out all the buzzwords, but, um, I’m, I’m a big advocate for it because it’s viability, right? It’s your customer viability and the [00:15:00] reason why these. 

[00:15:02] These methodologies or these ways of thinking are so successful. Um, and they’re used in the Silicon valleys and all that kind of thing is because they, what you’re doing is you’re going right. Am I actually building something that people want and, and. Working more agile just means that you’re constantly checking whether you, what you’re actually doing is working first of all, and whether your custom actually locks it because at the end of the day, it could be internal customer or external customer. 

[00:15:33] But if your customer doesn’t lock it again, The old school methods, two years time, you’re going to go, here’s your, what you asked for and they’re going to go, wow, I don’t like it anymore. And you know, it doesn’t make sense anymore, but you know, when you’re doing it every month or every two weeks in that agile kind of thinking, you’re constantly going, does this add value to what I’m trying to do? 

[00:15:56] And I think that’s what, you know, going back to the old school [00:16:00] process improvement, that’s why automation and process improvement work hand in hand because you’re constantly going, does this drive value for. The customer, is it going to give me market, um, Competitiveness and that kind of thing. So, um, you know, bringing, bringing that agile way of thinking and constantly going, right, this is what I need to do on a weekly basis and that driving that momentum as well. 

[00:16:23] Cause I think sometimes you lose momentum with those large scale kind of, um, transformation projects. If you do them the old way. I totally agree. I like that aspect that you mentioned where you’re seeing value needs to continually be re revisited. Are we really addressing the end user’s pain points? Are we thinking about how to make their life a little easier? 

[00:16:41] Um, and as you say, after two years, if you’re doing more of a waterfall method, you might actually end up with product that doesn’t meet the needs, but you actually might be addressing a completely different group of people then you, who you started with and they might go, Hey, this is irrelevant to me. 

[00:16:53] Now we have a new problem. And then the journey continues and, and you’ve got to be able to kind of. Pivot, [00:17:00] um, and move and be flexible as well. I think being able to, to understand where you failed and move on is important because it, it actually, you might, you might think of it. It is costing you more in the short term, but it’s not because, because you’re refurbing, what you actually delivering is going to add that value and, and, and, and their return of investment. 

[00:17:26] And that’s why you need to go. Right. Okay. I’m dropping this. It’s not working and move on to something a little bit more. Um, Beneficial or you’re solving that business problem, right. Actually, let’s, let’s dive deep into that a little bit. You mentioned this idea of mindset of, of being able to recognize that things are not working. 

[00:17:44] That’s, that’s pretty difficult. I think, um, for maybe people who are on either waterfall projects where it’s quite a defined process and, you know, you’ve invested quite a lot of resource. Um, what other mindsets challenges do you see or have you seen that might prevent someone [00:18:00] from actually. Going or undergo transformation? 

[00:18:02] Well, you’ve got the fixed mindsets. You’ve got the growth mindsets, and there’s a bit of a controversy about this, about who’s who, you know, whether you can change the people that are fixed mindsets. I don’t know. I’m still kind of searching for that answer. I constantly think about this, um, in, in projects that I do and it’s all about. 

[00:18:26] Convince it, those people that say no straight away. So you’ve got to determine, I guess, no, as in like, I won’t do this or no, it’s not a good idea or that kind of thing. You’ve got to try and read people and understand exactly what their ulterior motives are because everybody’s got these different agendas, right. 

[00:18:45] And every business you’re competing against different business units. Um, and I guess, you know, It’s as much as people don’t want to admit it. They all got their own things going on. [00:19:00] And, um, they’re all in competition, I guess, uh, trying to make a name for themselves. Not all of them, but some of them. So I think you’ve got to understand. 

[00:19:11] And that’s where that sort of black belt or program level sets where you kind of try and understand your stakeholders. You’ve got to map them out and. I think it’s a step that people skip often is actually sitting and spending some time planning and understanding who, who are my players here, who are the people that I have to tackle, who are going to be very difficult. 

[00:19:34] I think, you know, sometimes they are identified, but what are you actually going to do about that and influence them? So influencing is a, is a. I would say they call it more the softer skills of, of transformation or project management when you go do the courses. Yeah. They’re always in the softer skills bucket, but I think they’re actually the hardest skills because, you know, trying to convince someone there’s going back to that doctor, then you’re, you’re trying to convince [00:20:00] someone to take this pill and they’re going, no, I don’t think it’s going to benefit me at all. 

[00:20:04] So sitting with them actually, you know, going for those coffees, understanding and having those honest conversations about. What is your biggest worry about doing this? Then you can try and propose different options or try, and I guess, uh, uh, you know, try different techniques of, of, um, trying to give them what they want or, or negotiate with them a little bit along the way. 

[00:20:30] So if you can get your hardest, uh, people first, then they will sometimes be your biggest advocates. So it, you know, they are the ones that actually, if they. Are on the journey and they are sold on it. They will. Be the ones that are sending those emails, standing up at the town halls and also getting them to actually, you know, be part of those, those, uh, change management, I guess, uh, events is actually quite a good way as well because it gets them kind of, uh, [00:21:00] involved and on board and, you know, excited about it when they see other people excited about it as well. 

[00:21:05] It sort of, uh, um, those big, inspirational talkers that are sometimes asked. They’re if you see them, they’re actually bringing people up on the stage and they get people to try and be part of, of what they’re trying to do. Yeah, I, and I like how you said, um, the most difficult people can be the biggest advocates. 

[00:21:23] And, and you mentioned, you know, we talked about this earlier about competing agendas and people having different reasons for doing particular things, and there may be different roadblocks to your project. And you mentioned the way that you overcome that is to actually pull them aside and have a coffee. 

[00:21:39] Talk to them, understand what they’re worrying about is that, has that been the most effective way like that, that organic sort of relationship where to convince and influence people? I think so. Um, I think a lot of people shy away from the confrontations, or I keep the rive on the confrontations. I mean, not necessarily going and confronting someone [00:22:00] and saying, you know, what’s your problem. 

[00:22:02] I think it’s, it’s sitting down with them and just. A human to human, right. I mean, we’ve all got, we’ve all got things going on in our personal lives. We’ve all got things going on and our work lives, you know, it’s stressful, you know, even, uh, yeah. Something that have, have happened to them before work. And then you’re sitting in a meeting with them, they just crashed their car, or, you know, their kids are late or something like that. 

[00:22:29] And you know, you’re sitting down with them and asking them for money, and then they’re saying no, so going and having a coffee with them, um, getting them outside of that office environment are things quite effective. To have because, and even just going for a walk sometimes go out, grabbing a takeaway coffee. 

[00:22:45] I mean, it’s hard now COVID times try and do that, but I’ve still done the coffee. Catch-ups over teams. It’s not, you know, it’s not as effective, but, um, it works. I mean, even a phone call mean we don’t pick up the phone as much anymore. It’s a lot of messages over [00:23:00] teams and stuff, but I’m a big, big advocate for, um, Picking up the phone and having a chat and just, uh, maybe even having a laugh sometimes and try and find that, um, that common ground that you’ve got with someone. 

[00:23:13] Yeah. So, so let’s move on now to wait. I used to overcome those challenges. I’m sure there’s a lot of listeners are here who have faced some of the things you’ve mentioned. We’re thinking about man. I mean, a team, I mean, an organization that really would benefit from change. Um, what are the kind of, what are the few things that you would say to it, to an individual or a team who’s thinking about those things and how can they start to think about transformation in their context? 

[00:23:38] So. If first thing to do is obviously to look at your strategy. I mentioned it right at the beginning, but I think it’s quite important to understand exactly what you’re trying to do. And I guess the benefit there’s always that benefit element to it. Um, and it’s not always, um, dollar benefit. [00:24:00] Um, sometimes, you know, you underestimate also the, the. 

[00:24:05] The concept of internal employees and their customer engagement, motivation, that kind of thing. So I think it’s important to, to benchmark where you’re at, you know, whether it’s sending a survey or something like that, right. At the beginning, and doing those focus groups similar to what like Coca Cola and those kinds of guys do. 

[00:24:27] And they kind of release a new product. I mean, they sit with their sit with people and they sort of talk about some of the challenges and. Um, and also some of the positives and some of the things that, you know, the ideas of, of the users and bring it along your kind of planning journey. So I think that that planning for transformation, you’ve got to understand sort of, how long are you going to be doing this transformation for? 

[00:24:52] Is it a ongoing thing or are you going to do like a five, 10 year thing or are you going to do a three year. I think, uh, yeah, [00:25:00] we used to do strategy and sort of five years plus, but I think now everybody’s sort of noticed that because of the fast changing pace of, of the world we’re in one to three years is probably better, um, understanding exactly what your goals and your mission is. 

[00:25:17] And some of your capabilities and assessing your capability is probably a very important one for transformation and understanding exactly. Who you are as a business who you are as a function, um, who your people are and what are your gaps? Uh, cause there’s no, you know, uh, one big, um, transformation that I worked on. 

[00:25:40] A few years ago, we actually brought McKinsey in to do yeah. A massive assessment of, of, you know, what we we’re at and, and their number crunching. They’re gathering all that data, but they’re experts in it. I don’t always believe in bringing external parties in like [00:26:00] consultants, but you, if. There’s no point in doing it, if you can’t do it yourself. 

[00:26:05] Right. And understanding that execute gap and Mark capability and also time as well. Cause they do it very quickly. So, um, I guess that’s sort of like the speed and pace that you want to get to because often the biggest challenges is the momentum, right. And transformation. So having that planning phase and understanding your end. 

[00:26:23] Kind of a milestone. So let’s say we’re going to do a three month planning session. We need to do an assessment in the first month that it’s bringing an external party and let’s outsource that tedious piece of work that it takes. And also they’ve, they’ve got all the tools and templates and everything ready to go. 

[00:26:42] So they experts in it, all these consultancies. So come and bring them in. Get it done, get them to report and let everybody kind of assess where we’re at and do that analysis part of it as well. So it’s all about kind of the data drive your decisions for your transformation. [00:27:00] So I don’t think you can, you can kind of give a skeleton of where you’re going for the first one. 

[00:27:05] Yeah, two, three years, but you need to do that analysis and that planning stakeholder kind of mapping, understanding the impact your business from a user. Cause you know, users obviously doing their day jobs, so you’ve got to bring them along that way. Um, so yeah, I think it’s that, that beginning stages so critical for kind of panning for the future and your transformations. 

[00:27:27] Yeah. And you said strategy, um, and I’m curious, do you mean sort of the overarching organization strategy or is it the team within that organization having their own strategy? Yeah, you, so it’s the overarching company, um, business strategy and it’s then your divisional kind of strategy. So you’ve got your corporate and your business, and then your, obviously your unit strategy, which is more, um, Relatable to probably that transformation, unless it’s a [00:28:00] whole global kind of corporate, um, transformation, which, um, people kind of shy away from for obvious reasons. 

[00:28:07] Um, but I think, uh, yeah, you’ve got obviously your overarching one, you need to align sort of your goals and your missions. Um, so for example, if your a fuel company has decided to go digital and they’ve got a digital strategy, right. And you can kind of leverage some of that, right? They’ve done the work for you. 

[00:28:28] So if you’re developing, so your transformation and strategy, you can kind of link in with some of the techniques and tools and people and process that they’ve kind of tried to put in place and, and leverage some of that, um, strategy and, uh, capability as well. So you mentioned that one of the key things is that planning stage right at the beginning. 

[00:28:47] So you’ve got sort of, you know, you said one to three years, given the pace of the organization in the modern world, you then kind of have a goal and a mission that the. You know, you want to align to the company goal, but also you want to have a division wide as well. And then you want to assess your [00:29:00] capability, sort of the people. 

[00:29:00] Do you have the time? Do you have the resources? Can we actually do this assessment? And do we have the people who can then, um, find out information or do we need to bring in external sources to help us with that? So for a team who’s then gone through that process of kind of making that assessment and then, um, Put put a goalpost around what they’re going to be doing. 

[00:29:21] What would you say is the kind of next step for, for, for a team who then wants to actually execute on that transformation? Yeah, so I, Oh, I I’m, uh, I love kickoffs, like the, the, the big launches, you know, we used to do that. We did that, you know, on that big kind of global implementation. Um, we really kind of rolled out, um, Oracle globally, you know, that it was a little bit of. 

[00:29:47] How we doing. So it’s a bit of marketing actually involved in that kind of thing. You kind of got to say, this is what we’re doing. This is why it’s going to drive, get people excited and pumped up. And you kind of build your own brand for your, for [00:30:00] your, um, for your project. And actually one that I did in Australia a few years, they, uh, the, the project, uh, gave itself a name, um, And it was called the Falcons and then they sort of even printed up mugs and stuff like that and, and, and got people involved and even, you know, did like, uh, they did an open day there at, um, is it hard park and like got football and people to play and, you know, it was just sort of like, Come and ask us what our project’s about. 

[00:30:36] Come and play, got some key users involved, some advocates, some champions and that kind of thing. So it was a, it was a big drive to sort of start right, and set yourself right for success. Um, you know, I think you’ve got to be confident in what you’re doing transparent, um, in what you’re doing, and then also how it’s going to impact. 

[00:30:58] Their users and how and [00:31:00] what also the benefit, I guess, is going to bring, bring from a longer term perspective for, for everybody. Okay. So it’s going to automate this or it’s going to. It’s going to streamline your process and these are the functions. Um, and, uh, yeah, I think, I think launching that in, in a big way, you know, sets you up because then when you’re booking those meetings, for example, you starting those workshops, requirements gathering or any, any of that sort of activity, then people don’t go, what is this? 

[00:31:30] Why am I doing this kind of thing? You know? So, you know, getting those key senior people as well involved and understanding, you know, they’re, they’re sending out comms to all of their, you know, teams going, Hey, This, this project is doing this. Can you help them out? Kind of thing. So to getting that change management, um, comms, um, started right at the beginning of your journey, you know, so you’ve obviously got the planning stage, but I think sometimes they bring change people in and comms [00:32:00] people right at the end of a project. 

[00:32:01] Right. And again, that was that old waterfall, you know, bring them on at the end, send out a couple of quick reference guides and then bang you’re gone. Um, but I think you can’t do that anymore. You’ve got to go right, set up those groups, set up those meetings, um, and do a bit of a, uh, kind of stakeholder, you know, planning phase where you’re kind of going well, these are all little drops. 

[00:32:26] Solve information along the way. So sort of like almost like a digital kind of marketing campaign. I think we can learn a lot from, from that kind of industry as well. Um, you know, being in finance, so people are like, Oh, what does that got to do with it? But, um, you know, my sister actually works in digital marketing and some of the stuff that she’s sort of given me and, and told me about with the campaigns, I was like, right, well, we can really use that. 

[00:32:53] Um, from a, from a. Customer kind of engagement perspective and bringing it all the [00:33:00] different business units on the journey. She, a little bit on the spot here, what would be some digital marketing tips for a team who’s thinking about transformation. Well, uh, you could do that whole banner thing or give it a name. 

[00:33:14] Thanks. Sometimes people give the projects like these weird coded names. I don’t know how they come up with them. So some it’s the same as like, cause sometimes you think, why did they call it that? Yeah. Uh, having a, those. Just simple, like the banners or, or, um, you know, like, uh, having the muggy. I know I’ve seen some other, um, it kind of projects do mugs. 

[00:33:39] I think I’ve still got a mug in my, in my cupboard. And every time I look at it, I’m like, Oh, I remember that project. It was quite a cool kind of project. So I think, um, you know, that’s definitely that, that softer fun element to it. Cause it doesn’t have to be all, you know, Books and laptops and stuff like that. 

[00:33:55] You can actually do like fun sort of banners and go around. And even, [00:34:00] you know, back in the day, we used to have the t-shirts and people doing floor walks and stuff like that. Do you don’t, you can still do it. I mean, you have it. Yeah, check box. There we go. Look at it. Oh, that’s good. As you kind of building your brand. 

[00:34:15] And I think it’s not only about personal brand, it’s about your project, bad brand as well. And building up, uh, a good sort of, um, Uh, responsibility for yourself where you can kind of keep to it. Cause you know, obviously then you don’t want to do anything that destroys your brand. So you kind of keep that momentum going over the top. 

[00:34:36] Yeah. And some of our other obviously tips are, um, Doing things that are probably out of the norm as well. Like, you know, Barker referred to that, that outdoor. So I’m soccer day or something like that. It’s sort of out of the norm of a normal kind of even a software project, you know, you’re doing something fun or even just standing in the lobby sometimes, you know, I’ve seen that also be quite effective, standing in the [00:35:00] lobby as a project and go, Hey, do you want to. 

[00:35:03] Um, do you want to talk about our project or at least hear about it, or even just standing there with your t-shirts on or something like that? You know, people get, it gets interest cause people like, what is that? Um, this is different, obviously posting stuff on Yammer and, and that kind of thing. That’s right. 

[00:35:20] That’s so interesting that you mentioned that because it’s almost, it almost sounds like you’re creating a mini company within the organization and you’ve got this brand leading this company, trying to get awareness and trying to get buy-in from the people. But that’s where that’s where big, if you look at the big tech giants and the digital giants, that’s where they’re going. 

[00:35:39] They’re basically creating a ecosystem within themselves where it’s almost like, well, you’re, every business unit is a customer. And that’s what you need to think about is every everyone as a customer, you know, it doesn’t matter what, who you speak to, what you do. You’ve always got to, um, understand [00:36:00] that, that, that person. 

[00:36:02] Could you don’t know how they’re going to influence you and promote you and, um, you know, give you props or give you opportunities or, or help you out even when you’re a need on your projects or, or anywhere in, in your career. So, I think, uh, having that, uh, that brand internally and, and, you know, it isn’t that different agendas and stuff like that. 

[00:36:24] I think you’ve still got to think of yourself as, uh, uh, for example finance or it, or whatever. Like you’re, you’re that kind of mini company within as a surface. Right. Um, I just want to drill down here a little bit, cause you mentioned finance transformation a couple of times and I want to. Draw out a little bit more specifically, the transformation that you’ve witnessed in the finance industry, because I’m sure some of our listeners that are coming from that background, um, in your experience of kind of watching that and you’ve, you know, you’ve definitely been more on the kind of, um, the transformation side of things, um, as opposed to sort of the knowledge [00:37:00] expert side of things. 

[00:37:00] What have you seen happening on that finance side previously? And now what, what’s the kind of trend that you’re seeing on the transformation front in the finance industry? Yeah, the trends that used to be process improvement, it was all lean, lean, lean, everything. Uh, and then, you know, people got trained and, and then, you know, people were, you know, I guess the, the. 

[00:37:24] I did actually train myself. I definitely developed a little training session called edgy lean, whereas, and that was years ago. Um, I co-developed it with, um, uh, Denise, uh, yeah. And, uh, we, well, we did the lean boot and that was, that was a train because it was like, right. People need to learn how to process, improve their own. 

[00:37:50] Processes. And then there was the offshoring kind of trend where it was like, right. Well, we need to do not [00:38:00] necessarily, um, FTE cuts, although that was definitely, you know, to be honest, a massive driver for that, um, that capability, but there are obviously the pluses of the, of the. Off shore people, right. 

[00:38:14] You know, it’s, it’s, it’s costs, it’s effectiveness, that kind of thing. And it’s all about reduction of manual tasks and finance. I mean, spreadsheets, you can get buried in spreadsheets and vine. And so I think it’s all about reducing that kind of manual effort. So I think the, the BPO is definitely serve their worth, but then. 

[00:38:33] Came automation, um, RDA being the first one, which sort of the desktop automations. Um, and I think the, it shook up the BPO, uh, guys quite a lot because, you know, automating stuff, you don’t need a BPO. So I think that a lot, I saw a lot of those BPS taking on that. Um, and I actually sat her worth one of the, the C uh, uh, people at a, [00:39:00] at an offshore, um, A company a while ago, actually years ago. 

[00:39:05] And I said to them, you hugged us, have to do something because otherwise you’re going to get, you’re going to get pushed out of the market. Um, and I could definitely see a lot of that coming out, but there obviously it’s, it’s that remote automation that sometimes is, is, is more difficult. It’s not as agile as sort of quick, cause obviously the quicker you implement the quicker you see the benefit. 

[00:39:30] So. There’s there’s sort of like the off shore that work in partnership as a capability with process improvement to, to automate. And then there’s now a lot of the onshore work flow sort of, um, automations where you’re getting, uh, Task and flow automations, which I think is quite important for finance nowadays, because at the end of the day, you know, that we’re all [00:40:00] moving towards that analytics and advanced analytics. 

[00:40:03] Um, I’m not sure that AI is. Big while I haven’t seen it that big or being able to be used as well as it could do in finance. Um, but it’s getting there and I think, you know, for finance, it’s all about data. And I think previously people are trying to fix data. But we have so many source systems and you never going to be able to fix that completely. 

[00:40:27] So I think that’s where that automation came in and says actually, um, you know, or getting your own data and speeding up your own data. So you don’t have to fix the actual data in the source system itself. And then you’ve got obviously the visualization tools on top of those. So I definitely think that that’s the way the things are going soon. 

[00:40:50] Is that sort of the data Lake side of things, you know, don’t need to kind of fix it, but maybe just streamline it, um, improve your data lineage a little bit. [00:41:00] And then you’ve got that, uh, that add those add ons, like analytics and that kind of thing. That’s why it’s, it’s always good to have people. Um, remove all that manual tasks from their day-to-day jobs so they can do the more decision-making and analytics. 

[00:41:17] Um, and it does really compliment automation. Um, I think, you know, there were, there was definitely a concern. Um, a while ago where it was like the robots are coming and people are, people are going to be, get, everyone’s going to be automated. It’s going to be like those Amazon warehouses where there’s no people it’s just machines everywhere, but they all actually people in those, in those warehouses actually. 

[00:41:41] Um, and you know, I think I’ve definitely seen, you know, how some of the tools have really improved efficiency. Where it’s same as a digital app, same as the Garmin, uh, you know, example. I don’t have to manually go and do stuff anymore. I can just, everything’s just available to me. So [00:42:00] when I come to work in the morning, things are sitting in a, in a folder or things are waiting for me or things of, uh, tasks of have completed overnight when I was, um, blissfully sleeping. 

[00:42:13] So I think it’s, you know, it’s definitely a trend where people are now starting to see the benefits of it. And. Buy in to being part of that sort of AI journey and that smart automation, intelligent, um, journey. So I think, uh, yeah, uh, I’m, I’m hoping that advanced analytics is going to become a lot more kind of, uh, Uh, useful in the next couple of years, for sure. 

[00:42:39] And, and what you mentioned sounds like that, you know, the fear of automation taking away all human jobs is no, it’s not the reality. The reality is actually that the data that you mentioned actually helps experts make better decisions. And actually, as you say, improves or makes more efficient that their, their day-to-day jobs. 

[00:42:57] Yeah. Definitely. And I mean, if you [00:43:00] think, if you think when you start at a company, right, or on a project, even like how long does it take you to get up to speed, um, of looking through documents and that kind of thing. And if you could, if you could have, for example, I went on to, um, uh, the, just the, the GE site, um, Yesterday or the day before. 

[00:43:25] And they have a little chat bot that comes up that actually tells you, it like asks you what you’re looking for and you telling it about yourself and it actually gives you what you want. It thinks that you’re looking for right. Imagine, if you could do that with restarting on a project or starting in a company or starting in your finance role, right. 

[00:43:46] You, you came in and then it’s like, okay, well I’m a finance accountant in this area and you tell it, and then it gives you all the relevant information to you. So you don’t have to go away and look through folders and folders and [00:44:00] SharePoint sites and all sorts of things where you’re kind of constantly, you know, Pulling your hair out, cause you don’t know what’s relevant. 

[00:44:07] So you’re just absorbing everything. Um, uh, I know there’s obviously the, um, the tribal knowledge you have to learn for our company. Um, but yeah, I think definitely automating that onboarding experience is probably the best benefit you can give to any company. And it doesn’t matter what industry you’re in. 

[00:44:29] That, that that’s such a good use case. I would love that. Oh, I’m sorry. I put the information in my brain as well. Get one of those Elon Musk chips and just shoot it into me. Sorry. I’m not scared of automation or AI. I’m like, Hey, I could be half robot might be better. Oh, that’s so good. Um, cool. So, um, before we get to kind of like the, the impacts of. 

[00:44:58] Um, transformation. [00:45:00] Are there any other tips that you would give to teams? We’re thinking about transformation you’ve mentioned like so many good things already. Yeah. I mean, there’s obviously there’s obviously. So many different, um, techniques and air doesn’t it, obviously it doesn’t matter what, what you do. 

[00:45:18] It’s always going to be different. Every single piece of work is different. Every client is different. Every customer is different. Every leader is different. So every, everything is constantly changing and it doesn’t matter what the content is. I think you just still have to have that very structured and pragmatic approach to things. 

[00:45:40] And. You do learn that from certain, um, being on certain projects and you do learn that. But I think, you know, going back to, I always refer back to my, uh, my notes sometimes of my process improvement courses and that kind of thing. So I’m constantly educating myself and, um, and going, okay, well that didn’t work. 

[00:46:00] [00:46:00] This worked. Um, that’s another thing is doing the post-implementation reviews is so important, but people. People find them really boring. So I think if you could find a fun way to do it and also have a few apps out of it. I know everyone wants to just finish up and just go write books closed, but I think that control element of it to go, did it actually work, uh, doing that survey and re benchmarking yourself afterwards, I think is quite important. 

[00:46:31] Uh, so using data at the beginning and, and at the end. So, um, did, was I successful? Why wasn’t I successful sort of what went well, what didn’t go well, um, trying to learn from it. I think it’s not only about just learning from it and talking about it. It’s actually going okay, what can we actually fix in our, in the way that we actually do it? 

[00:46:50] So tweaking some of those processes and the way that you do it. So. It’s that whole, uh, continuous improvement that people show up. I [00:47:00] know, I know it is, it is a lot of work. Yeah. Um, yeah. Um, but I’m a big advocate in it. Cause it does kind of keep you honest about how successful you actually were. I think people just want to close their eyes and just kind of throw it away, um, that you do need to go, okay. 

[00:47:18] Well what are my failures? Because. You know, learning, even feedback in your, in your personal life or feedback, I’m sure your husband or your wife, he’s giving you feedback, you know, and want to hear from them. They want to hear from them though. Um, but in a work sense, I think it’s actually good. I actually really enjoy when I go to someone after I’ve run something go well, did I actually do a good job and give me some, give me some goods, right? 

[00:47:43] And under one, you to just say, you know, I did a good job or whatever. So I think that. In your transformation journey to constantly go, what am I doing? Right. And what am I not doing? Right. And how can I change the way I engage with people or whatever it might be. Yeah. And you mentioned earlier that [00:48:00] one of the ways to do that is benchmarking or surveys. 

[00:48:02] Uh, are there any other ways that you would encourage teams to think about post-implementation reviews? Well, there is, there are structured templates and things, um, where you can actually go full, full throttle and, and, um, yeah, I think there’s like 10 different categories where you can kind of assess yourself on. 

[00:48:24] So. Well, you know, I’m, I’m always keen to go back to the actual, you know, structured approach to it. You can do it informally, but, uh, yeah, definitely the structured approach would be, uh, my, um, my advice and to actually have something where you’ve kind of. Kept a note of it till kept, kept it somewhere and then circulate it to everyone for, for someone to have a certain people, um, to have an input and get, just get people to talk about it in their team meetings as well. 

[00:48:53] Right. Um, and have that sort of informal informal feedback to things. And, uh, yeah, so I go, Oh [00:49:00] yes. Let’s, let’s give kudos to, to whatever, whatever is due. And then, you know, let’s have a think about how we can, because you do need to have those. Follow up actions afterwards of transformation. Yeah. Because otherwise you just, especially, if you’re not on a long journey of transformation, you’re going to have to reassess every three months or so I would say there’s no point in going right. 

[00:49:23] Let’s do our yearly. Performance review and, uh, and, and check what, where we’re at. I think it’s, it’s quite good to, to constantly go, how are we doing? And, uh, just reevaluating doing that strategy. Like I talked about that strategy resets and stuff like that. And, um, see if things are working because again, strategies are reset every year, right? 

[00:49:46] So you do kind of need to. Need to relook at things and, uh, in that transformation journey or at least check on yourself or what you’re doing is relevant. Yeah, absolutely. I’m curious. Um, just taking a step back, [00:50:00] you mentioned that, um, you know, process optimization person improvements are really be part of transformation. 

[00:50:05] One, one thing that I’ve noticed when talking to customers is technology. And obviously because I come from a technology background seems to be a large consideration about transformation. What advice would you give, you know, is technology always the answer or maybe it’s not always the answer, what’s your opinion on that? 

[00:50:21] And if someone gets to, or a team gets to a point where they’re considering technology, what type of advice would you give them when they’re undergoing sort of that consideration process? Technology is very rarely not part of a transformation. It’s normally some sort of element to it. No matter what it is, whether it’s turning off, um, a program or it’s getting a new program or it’s upgrading your, your current program. 

[00:50:46] But transformation is always about process people and technology. You know, you’ve got to have the three elements in there. You can’t miss any of them out. Otherwise you’re, you’re going to be stuck. Uh, Donna one [00:51:00] rabbit hole, um, considerations for technology. Yeah. I mean, I think this is, this is a funny one because you know, you’ve obviously got a technology department and every single company and they, and they. 

[00:51:14] They are the experts, right? So it’s going back to that whole, that outsourcing thing. Those guys are the experts. However, I do think some of the business people are closer to their processes and understand, Oh, you know, everybody is actually quite most people, quite tech savvy these days, you know, there is not only the technology people are, but I think you need to work with them. 

[00:51:37] To actually assess. So you need to have that solution architect or all that technical aspect of it, but you do need to have a business plan yes. And engaging with, with various there’s technologies. And I think, you know, it’s good to be. Open-minded about, um, technology that you don’t have at your going back to that core capability assessment. 

[00:51:58] I mean, if you don’t have something, [00:52:00] if you don’t have a tool or if you don’t or if you find a good tool. Then why not just have a chat with them and give them a chance because the end of the day, um, being a process improvement person, you’re always like technology. You don’t fix you. Don’t slap on technology, enter a business problem and just hope it’ll go away. 

[00:52:20] But sometimes you need to going to that design thinking. Sometimes you have to just. Give it an idea and go, right. Let’s just do a little prototype rather than do a full swing implementation. I’m the big advocate in that sort of, um, MVPs and the, and the prototypes, because then you can see, does it actually work? 

[00:52:40] Do it, use case, come up with the small top business problem. It’s all about unschooling now. So it’s not about the big scale implementations, even though I did start my career in it. Um, Companies just don’t have the multi-million dollar projects to spend on. Whole [00:53:00] budget, sorry. Twos to spend on big technology implementations. 

[00:53:04] That’s why those small ones actually quite good to test. And then, you know, if you and the vendor or that technology, um, company, if you go, yeah, it doesn’t work after a certain time then yeah. You can walk away from it and say, well, at least I didn’t spend millions of dollars on it. I mean, you’ve got to have that little bit of a slush fund to spend on and test things out and see if they’ve. 

[00:53:28] Parcel fell. Cause you might get onto something really good, right? Yeah. That’s so interesting. You mentioned that slush fund. So it’s almost like you’re allocating budget to prototype and test things out to see if they can better improve what you have right now. Yeah. Yeah, you got to, I think I’ve read a lot about this recently and listened to a lot of podcasts, uh, on this. 

[00:53:49] And it is it’s something which is a trend and a phenomenon that’s catchy coming, coming about. I mean, uh, Google were the pioneers for this of just having like a. [00:54:00] Slack audit slash phone. Um, but having a pot of money where letting people innovate, you need to let people innovate and, and not go, okay, well, this is not part of our, our regular BAU operational cost, um, allocations. 

[00:54:17] You need to have somewhere where people can play around with and test it out. And yes, I think it’s important to let people do their homework and, uh, and almost apply for almost like a mini grant or something like that. That internally. So they actually do their homework. Um, but then if they know that they’re going to get the funds for it, then they’ll work for it. 

[00:54:38] I think it’s that whole viability thing. And then they’ll do their research and then go and see whether there’s actually something that’s needed or whether people want it or whatever. Exactly. Wow. That’s great. And so there’s almost like a grant structure that you mentioned where people can apply. They can say I’d like to innovate on this. 

[00:54:56] I think this would be the technology that I’d like to build out an MVP on, and [00:55:00] then they kind of go through consideration. Yeah. I mean, we, yeah, I’ve seen it in almost an, every single organization I’ve worked in and, um, yeah, they definitely have, lendees where they’ve got sort of, uh, the innovation program, they call it and, you know, people have got. 

[00:55:15] You know, the opportunity to submit their ideas. And it’s sort of like a, a six month program where you almost like a mini startup. Right. Um, you know, I know previous organizations were big on it as well, so it’s, it’s, it’s almost thinking back to what we’re saying about that whole. You know, up within, within a company where you’re giving people the opportunity to actually, um, think like a business and be their kind of their own entrepreneurs, but within, cause I mean, there’ll be gonna benefit your company, right. 

[00:55:46] Especially a large organization. Right. Um, actually we were talking about that on a pre interview about that innovation stream than these. And you were sharing about your experience, um, having gone through that. [00:56:00] Cycle yourself. Can you share with the listeners a little bit about what that experience was like? 

[00:56:05] It was great. It was, it was a real, um, uh, challenger and our opener. So what we had to do was we had to submit our ideas and then, uh, we all sat in a massive big meeting room. And then this, uh, the score from, uh, Stamford, um, I think he’s the Stanford innovation kind of program leader or whatever. And, um, they, there. 

[00:56:31] Used to coaching startups and entrepreneurs. So they were talking to us like, and I was like, I’m not an entrepreneur. Like, I don’t know what I’m doing, but he, he basically gave us the directive, um, to, and come back with the answer, whether your, your product or your service or whatever your idea was, was something that people actually wanted. 

[00:56:55] So it’s all about that design thinking of that. Um, That customer [00:57:00] viability thing. And we had to do a 24 hour experiment and I. Didn’t really know what to do at first, but I sent, I sent out a quick survey or five questions via email, actually. Um, just for speed’s sake to like 200 people across all of our regions and yeah. 

[00:57:20] Mass response rate was fantastic. I got 195 back within 24 hours. I mean, some people were literally within an hour or two just long emails. Yes, we want to fix this, please help us. Thank goodness. Someone’s looking at this. I was like, Oh my goodness, no pressure. But then it gave me a very valuable lesson and a very valuable piece of data was yes. 

[00:57:43] That it was a problem. And B some data on what the pain points were was. I even asked a couple of questions on sort of like, what, how do, how can I measure it as well? Um, which I think is quite important, sort of like the time it takes. So there’s that productivity [00:58:00] element of the cost of poor quality as we call it in the, in the six Sigma, um, world. 

[00:58:06] And yeah, it was, it was really interesting to understand how, what to do with that data next into harder. Build that sort of mini, it wasn’t really a business case, but it was sort of like putting together a one page value proposition about why I’m, why I need to do this thing. And then I had the data. 

[00:58:23] Right. So, um, yeah. And I got off the ground and got funded and everything, so that’s great. So yeah, it was a, it was definitely. An eye opener, but also something really motivated me in my career and my, my as an individual as well. Cause it’s, it, it, it made me think, well, I actually did something and I had a good idea and actually was proof that it needed to be done. 

[00:58:46] Yeah. I love that step that you mentioned where you said you went out, you sent the emails and you actually got validity before you actually went and got that funding. So it’s like that iterative process you mentioned early on. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Cause we had to react to report back obviously. [00:59:00] And uh, and obviously you get the divide of the people that didn’t really do the experiment. 

[00:59:06] And then you got the people that were really keen and did the experiment, but did it, you know, brought back obviously their findings. And I think that was quite a valuable lesson. That’s beautiful. Um, and then moving on now to kind of the, the impact of some of those innovation, or I should say transformation initiatives that, uh, you’ve carried out. 

[00:59:26] What, uh, what has been the impact that you’ve seen on the three factors? You mentioned people process and technology are post transformation and anything that you can speak to for teams who are kind of going through it, not sure what the end looks like, what can they expect when they come out? The other side of the tunnel? 

[00:59:43] Well, you cannot, you cannot have come out of the tunnel and have fireworks or you can have fire. So I think, uh, yeah, the, the, well, the people element, gain, go iterating. Some of the things we’ve already spoken about it’s it is [01:00:00] bringing people on the journey. And I know that’s a very common phrase, but it’s so important. 

[01:00:04] And that people element, you know, you could, you could improve people farmer from a capability perspective, you know, With any change. It’s a teaching people new skills and giving people new experience. And there are a lot of people out there that want to do new things. They’re sitting in their stale jobs and, and they’ve been doing sort of more of that knowledge sort of SME, um, work. 

[01:00:29] And, and you just never knew that they wanted to be a project manager or one as you’ve a changed person or wanted to learn about, you know, a new workflow tool or something like that. So, When they learn it, it opens their doors, which means that they’re a lot more motivated to succeed. So I think coming out of that, um, you know, you’ve got to, you’ve got to identify the people that are willing or learning, um, because you don’t need to go and get external people sometimes or get [01:01:00] contractors. 

[01:01:00] And sometimes you’ve got internal people that want to do different types of jobs. So the people element is a very interesting one. Um, The process one. Yeah. I mean, I think the end goal is always to improve processes and, um, make things quicker, faster, better for everybody. Um, but you do need to be, um, it just does need to compliment the technology, you know, big program of work I did years ago. 

[01:01:29] Um, I led the process improvement team into inside that. Um, technology transformation. Wow. And it was quite, it was a bit, yeah. Competing because of a people like role, we’re upgrading this technology, we’re going, you know, we’re, we’re trying to gather requirements. And I was like, well, no, you got to streamline before you can actually get to it. 

[01:01:51] So we’re doing it actually in parallel. Um, whereas people just said that could never be done. You’ve got to do the process one first and then [01:02:00] start a technology project. I think that’s incorrect. I think it’s actually better. And a compliments, a technology project when you do that improvements. Um, In parallel because you’re actually then implementing a software where it’s the best it could possibly be. 

[01:02:18] It’s not like a stagnant thing, you know, you’ve actually improved it to the best. So when it goes live, it’s better than what it was before. That’s beautiful. And, and what about the technology side? What can someone expect on the other side of implementing? What are some of the kind of good things and then maybe not so good things that could potentially happen? 

[01:02:38] Yeah, well, you sometimes you’ve got defects and things like that afterwards, so there’s always going to be a, a, a bit of a trial period or teething period afterwards. Uh, I would probably just say to people just, you know, ride with it because at the end of the day, you know, The program should understand all the, [01:03:00] all the project should understand the cost element of that. 

[01:03:02] There’s always going to be that after effect, after shock of that kind of thing, but from a. Everyday BAU perspective. I mean, that’s just the way that it is. And I wouldn’t say that that’s an unsuccessful project. I think that’s normal. I’ve actually never, ever come out of a technology project where there’s been no defects or no tra teething problems afterwards. 

[01:03:25] There’s always is a problem afterwards, but it’s how you deal with those things and make sure that, um, they’re almost part of that post project. Um, um, You know, uh, process. So you’re constantly, you’re constantly kind of monitoring it as it go. I mean, the steer CO’s and those, and those decision-making forums normally stay for a good kind of trial period afterwards, um, for six months till stabilization. 

[01:03:57] Right. And I think once you get to that [01:04:00] stabilization, you’ll see this kind of an end goal. So yeah. I wouldn’t get worried. It, it is what it is, you know, we’re all constantly learning and less, uh, you know, it’s a very kind of simple technology implementation. I think, you know, there is some successes out of it and, and at the end of the day, you’ve bettered your technology. 

[01:04:18] You’re always going to be one step ahead in that digital transformation journey, you know, staying on prem and staying, um, Sort of, uh, in the old archaic computer systems is never a good thing. Anything you’re doing to improve your technology is one step ahead. That’s great. And how can teams measure their success? 

[01:04:41] How can teams kind of reflect back and, and maybe it’s something to do with the data that you mentioned before. Uh, and, and I know you’re a very data-driven person, but how can teams actually reflect and say, look, this is. We did well, we benchmarked well, or maybe we didn’t benchmark. So what, what, what are some indicators in your experience that, you know, define those successes and failures? 

[01:05:00] [01:04:59] Yeah. If, um, when you do send out sort of surveys and stuff, you can do the star rating. Um, again, that’s another kind of the marketing sort of campaign kind of benchmarker, which you can use, which is sort of like a five-star rating, you know? Good. Too, too bad and just get people to do it before and after. 

[01:05:20] Um, when I did that 24 hour experiment ask people to do the star rating and it was like a one out of five. And I think it’s, uh, yeah, obviously four, four, five out of never going to be a hundred percent. But I think, um, you do need to, I guess, Understand sort of like your, your tickets as well. And, um, the, you know, all the data sources that you possibly do have, you know, are there, you know, speak to all the different people who are kind of managing or supporting those tools and processes as well? 

[01:05:51] You know, so it’s the actual SMEs that are going to be telling you that. The true story about how it’s actually working, um, and just going and speaking to the, the, [01:06:00] probably the high level users of the, of the process or technology as well. You know, someone that actually lives in breeze, that stuff on a daily basis just have a chat with them. 

[01:06:08] So that going back to that, the coffees and the, uh, just picking up the phone. Of measuring that. Uh, but it’s always, um, it’s always, you’re only going to see that kind of benefit and being able to measure it to, if it’s something like the, uh, accuracy numbers and that kind of thing, depending on what SLS and all that kind of thing you you’re going. 

[01:06:28] So it’s going back to kind of, what kind of format you put in place before in that structure and looking and looking at it after it’s been done. That’s beautiful. Any other advice that you’d give to teams? We’re thinking about how to measure their success? Well, if people are smiling and people are happy and you see them on the, on the, in the corridors or on teams and, uh, or any of the meetings and people are like, Hey, tamarin done today is good. 

[01:06:59] But if [01:07:00] you, if you, if it’s sort of silent, then I probably would get worried. Um, you know, it’s, it’s, you’ve got to see that. So in Derek Carr sort of body language and, uh, and, uh, And general fields of things. And also if, if you go and ask for money again, and people say, no, you’ve obviously done something wrong. 

[01:07:19] Um, but yeah, I think differently. It’s, it’s, it’s always good to do. And, uh, uh, definitely I would say. Do it rather than don’t do it for any pieces of work, no matter how big or small they are, you know, hot harvest those ideas and get people to think about becoming like the solution culture and, um, You know, I think, you know, if you’ve got 80% of the people engaged at the beginning and yeah, that’s another thing you’ve got your employee surveys and stuff like that as well. 

[01:07:52] I think it’s always good to kind of harness those and leverage what, what your scores are in those. Cause, you know, I [01:08:00] think, uh, You, you don’t realize that when people put those surveys out there, actually, if they do fall in a really big transformation time, sometimes those scores are actually low, but you need to learn from those comments and take some of that stuff out. 

[01:08:15] Absolutely. We’ve come to time now. Uh, we want to really thank you tamarind for coming along. There’s a lot to learn here about transformation. How did the challenges that the facing that teams can learn from how to implement and overcome them and then how to actually measure success? I want to thank you. 

[01:08:30] Um, and, uh, all the best with, uh, your global process ownership and, and the transformation that you’re leading at Lendlease. Thank you very much, Ben. It’s been great to being on the show. Thanks. 

[01:08:43] Hey listeners, if you have your own story of digital service transformation, or know someone who does, we’d love to hear from you and get you on the show, just shoot us an email at outside the box. At checkbox.ai. If you’d like to read our show notes or listen to more episodes, you can always head [01:09:00] over to our [email protected] or find us on your major streaming platforms like Apple, Spotify, and Google as always. 

[01:09:07] Thanks so much for listening and we’ll see you at the next one. 

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